If being an MVP were merely a popularity contest, you'd
be one by now.
I don't know the whole story behind Rory getting
invited, but I can tell you this...the MVP summit (or at
least parts of it) is not strictly limited to MVPs.
There are parts where press are invited (and given his
position with .NET Rocks, Rory counts there), and there
are other exceptions that are made.
But the most important point is that the MVP Summit (and
in fact the MVP program itself) is Microsoft's. If they
want to invite non-MVPs to the summit, it's their
decision to make...they're footing the bill. No one lost
out because of Rory's presence, and I know a number of
people whose experience was enriched by his being there.
I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't
see any benefit to anyone in engaging in this kind of
"what's Microsoft thinking"
discussion. You're absolutely right that it makes you
look envious, it probably will make Rory feel worse
(when I would argue that he has absolutely nothing to
feel bad about in the first place), and it does other
MVPs like Frans who missed the summit no good
whatsoever. IMO, it would be best to let stuff like this
go.
"they want to invite non-MVPs to the summit,
it's their decision to make...they're footing the
bill"
Well, Gee thanks! Microsoft is getting from the MVP
summit no less than what it is giving. The summit is
about sharing - its not MS helping the community, is
more like MS and the community help each other. If the
ground rules are not respected at one side, why should
the other respect them? Could I give myself an exception
and go there just because I felt I deserve to? no. The
forces are not even. Hence, since the community MS hosts
has to stick by MS rules, it would only be appropriate
that MS, as the maker of these rules, Will uphold them,
or no respect for them or any joy of actually being an
MVP will be achieved.
"and I know a number of people whose experience
was enriched by his being there"
Like I said, he's a great guy. I know plenty of guys who
would have been great to talk to with great stories. Yet
they are strangely not there.
"it probably will make Rory feel worse
"
It shouldn't. This isn't about him. It's about how MS
handles the event.
"and it does other MVPs like Frans who missed
the summit no good whatsoever"
If they felt the same than this post just became more
relevant because MS should know that there are unhappy
MVPs out there.
If they don't feel the same I'd love to hear why.
It does do good by raising this issue in public.
Conversation leads to improvement.
What good is a government without opposition?
Roy -
"I’m going to ask the Microsoft community
leaders a question and I bet I’m not the only one who
was asking himself that: 'What the f**k??.'"
The one thing I'd like to say in defense of MS is that
there doesn't seem to be an MVP category for people like
me, and that might be why I was allowed to go to the
summit without actually being an MVP.
Someone on my site suggested that there ought to be an
evangelism MVP award. I totally agree, but it doesn't
currently exist. Maybe my presence at the summit was an
indication that some people inside of MS think that it
*should* exist.
However, take all of this with a grain of salt. I
certainly don't want to try to speak for anyone at MS,
and I don't know their thoughts on the matter. This is
just a guess.
It makes some sense, though. Microsoft, in terms of the
MVP program anyway, is *very* product/technology
focused. The people who are getting the awards are the
ones who are, for example, answering
"tough" questions about Excel in
forums and newsgroups. Stuff like that.
Then, take me for example: I gave up a pretty damn good
income to be able to blog more and co-host .NET Rocks.
As of today, I've basically netted $0 this year, and,
I'm sorry to say, that's only a slight exaggeration.
There really *should* be some kind of recognition of the
contribution that a loud-mouthed jerk such as myself
makes to the community :) I'm not saying that anybody
owes me anything, but the truth is that I've chosen
armchair evangelism over a six-figure income - I'm
*paying* to do this. When I spoke in Hartford, and when
I spoke in Boston, I paid for everything. I parted with
dough for the privilege of "spreading the
word." I believe in this stuff, and it's
starting to cost me a pretty penny. The least I could
get in return is three lousy letters: M - V - P.
For that reason, I'm glad you brought this up. It might
stir up some noise of the "Maybe we need an MVP
category for people like Rory" sort. There are
chest beaters and horn blowers out there who, like me,
have probably done a decent job of getting people
interested/entertained/excited about Microsoft, but who
have received less recognition than someone who knew how
to get the visitor count Frontpage control working.
Anyway, all that said, I'm happy that I got to go. I
don't know why I was let in, but I suspect that it's for
something similar to the reasons I've presented here.
One more thing...
"Well, maybe you shouldn’t have accepted. If it
made you feel uneasy, maybe you should have taken it as
a sign."
There's no way I'd say "no."
I'm an atheist who believes that you only get *one* shot
at life. I don't believe in an afterlife, reincarnation,
or anything similar.
When the invitation came along, I looked at it from that
point of view. I knew, from not being an MVP, and not
knowing what would be going on in my life six months
from now, that I could either take it or leave it, and
possibly never see the offer again.
So, I took it :) I don't regret it at all, either. I
realize that it's a little controversial, but that's
never really stopped me from doing anything.
Rory:
"So, I took it :) I don't regret it at all,
either"
You shouldn't. You should also dismiss any feelings of
guilt which you may have had (and posted about?). I
would probably take the same opportunity.
I only wrote that because you seemed to feel bad about
doing this.
My gripe is about bending the rules. As for an MVP:
There is no Blogging MVP as well. Should there be?
probably. DO I think I deserve it, sure. Was there any
way I could have gotten in? no.
As for evangelism: AFAIK, you've only been at this for
like 2 months at .Net Rocks? Your blog is not much
different than a lot of blogs over at DotNetJunkies.com
or weblogs.aspnet - people who love .Net. Oh, yours is
much funnier, has comics and has been getting HIGH
ratings because you're a sharp, witty clever guy. But
still, I wouldn't call this pure evangelism because only
at .Net Rocks I could define it as something like that.
Beyond being product/technology focused, MVP is focused
on *particular* products/technologies. Not every product
gets MVPs (and as an outsider at this point, I have no
idea who decides which products rate MVPs). But I have
mail here saying "If [product X] had MVPs, you
would be one".
All of which just goes to emphasize the arbitrary nature
of the beast. But, it's Microsoft's party, they can
invite who they want to.
I removed my last two comments (both 1 liners)because I
didn't formalize my thougts well enough.
Rory:
How is what you described any different than blogs like
Darrell Norton, myself and many others? Does that mean
we should all be called evangelists?
BTW: there is a General .Net MVP award.
the only way this dispute can be resolved is for both
parties to engage in a tickle fight wearing nothing but
bras and panties
the winner gets the coveted mvp lapel pin
there should be a celebrity referee...
"Then, take me for example: I gave up a pretty
damn good income to be able to blog more and co-host
.NET Rocks. As of today, I've basically netted $0 this
year, and, I'm sorry to say, that's only a slight
exaggeration. There really *should* be some kind of
recognition of the contribution that a loud-mouthed jerk
such as myself makes to the community :) I'm not saying
that anybody owes me anything, but the truth is that
I've chosen armchair evangelism over a six-figure income
- I'm *paying* to do this. When I spoke in Hartford, and
when I spoke in Boston, I paid for everything. I parted
with dough for the privilege of "spreading the
word." I believe in this stuff, and it's
starting to cost me a pretty penny. The least I could
get in return is three lousy letters: M - V - P.
"
I know you said 'I'm not saying that anybody owes me
anything' but you sort of are with 'The least I could
get in return is three lousy letters: M - V - P.'. Also
giving up money was your choice and I don't think the
only reason you did it was for the betterment of the
community. Now having said that I'm thankful you did
make the choice.
BTW, I made the "Evangelist MVP"
suggestion. I'm not an MVP and I couldn't care less.
I mean, why not an MVP for .NET evangelism? They have an
MVP award for XBox?! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?! How are
they a "Technical guru". "No
dude, it's X-X-A THEN down.". C'mon now.
"Digital Media MVP"?!
Don't try to say that making a .NET Evangelist award
would sully the good name of MVP or lessen it's value.
People should put an intrinsic value on the MVP award
based on their knowledge of the person that gets it and
what they got it for, not based on who else has it.
I've an question - what is this MVP award about ?? Do
you spend all your time in
newsgroups/blogs/seminars/writing books to be simply
recognised as MVP ??
I think nope.
What is this MVP Summit about ? To talk and exchange
ideas or simply sit and watch each other and consume
drinks ?
Will you accept one more intelligent guy in your closed
circle ?? Or you will wait while somebody from Microsoft
award him badge with M.V.P. letters ? What's wrong if
Microsoft already decided to allow him to come without
magic letters ?
Just for a record. Let's go away from Rory person. What
in case if poor average-level coder will apper on MVP
summit without valid badge ? Will you kill him to not
allow steal any information ? Or you will share all the
info you have so he will benefit.
So ? What is this MVP program about ?
Closed circle with ability to get a free MSDN Universal
and several bucks on MSMarket store OR award to most
valuable persons in sharing technical information ?
P.S> Just for a record as fight-back.
I preffer some "MVP"s (thanks God -
only a few, most are trully respectable people) forget
about Microsoft newsgroups existance. Why ? Becouse they
usualy give useless and wrong answers on hard questions.
They are able to answer only on simple questions like a
Microsoft Corp. URL or latest service pack version
etc...
They do this to be "recognised" as top
newsgroup posters and keep their MVP status. I preffer
they keep silence if they do not know answer instead of
spending my and other people time to prove/check their
answer is lame.
All I can say is
"Just you Wait" ;)
AT, I'll agree with that - certain MVPs answers are
absolute rubbish, and totally false. I've just started
answering questions on the newsgroups, and when I do
answer, I try to stick at it if I can, until I can solve
the problem - and I doubt this will ever get recognised
because I will never have the same volume of different
distinct responses - but I find it more helpful to the
community, and more rewarding for me, then some of these
'MVP's one line meaningless 'answers'. (And I must
stress this is only some MVPs - the majority are very
good)
"Frans Bouma received his MVP a bit too late to
attend, so he didn’t. And guess what, I think Frans’
being there would have made a lot more sense. I wonder
what he felt reading Rory’s post on this."
I haven't read his post nor the comments yet, however I
look at it this way: there will always be MVP's who have
more knowledge than other MVP's. If I look at myself, I
really don't think I have the same amount of knowledge
about C# as for example Jon Skeet.
Because there are not a lot of MVP's out there, it's a
great honour to get the award (I think it is :)). If
every 1 out of 3 developers is an MVP, it gets a
somewhat degraded value, but I don't think we'll ever
reach that amount of MVP's. Because of the great value
of the award, I'm not upset that I wasn't in Seattle,
there will be hopefully a next time next year. It's the
award that matters: the recognition that what a person
has done for others is valuable for those others.
About non-MVP's being at the summit: well, nice for Rory
that he could get in, but being at a summit doesn't make
him an MVP :), just like it is not required to be an MVP
to be incredibly valuable for other people. You know you
help a lot of people with your blog and tools, Roy. I
think that's what matters :)
"Then, take me for example: I gave up a pretty
damn good income to be able to blog more and co-host
.NET Rocks. As of today, I've basically netted $0 this
year, and, I'm sorry to say, that's only a slight
exaggeration. There really *should* be some kind of
recognition of the contribution that a loud-mouthed jerk
such as myself makes to the community :)"
Suuurree :) You gave up a 6 figure income (in italian
lire's? ;)) to spread 'the word' and pay every expense
from your own pocket.
Well, as you practise 'armchair evangelism' as you call
it, perhaps MS could provide a nice, confortable seat
for you :)
Don: "ridiculous " ? when the HELL did
Rory become an RD?
Frans -
"Suuurree :) You gave up a 6 figure income (in
italian lire's? ;)) to spread 'the word' and pay every
expense from your own pocket."
I didn't say that was *why* I did it. I just said that
that's *what* I did. The distinction is important.
Right now, trying to figure out how I'm going to make
rent this month, believe me: I'm questioning the
intelligence of my actions.
And, no :) It was in lire...
It also wasn't the main point. It was just a detail.
However, I don't really care for the implication that
I'm lying, so thought I'd address it.
I never said Rory was an RD, I said he was invited under
the RD program. There is a big difference.
We can not know all the facts, so why make a judgment
based solely on the little we know. Someone high enough
up in Microsoft approved bringing Rory to Redmond the
week of the Summit. They authorized it, Rory decided
that it was worth his time to go to Redmond, and that is
good enough for me. Once you get use to the idea of NDAs
(and with it, the idea that you can't know everything
you want to know), you will understand that people can't
always disclose all the why's and how's. Also, one of
the rules of a NDA is that you are not allowed to even
say that you are under a NDA. So you will not get any
info out of Rory, or anyone who knows, on why he was
there.
Don -
"So you will not get any info out of Rory, or
anyone who knows, on why he was there."
Especially since even *I* don't know how I got there...
It was just as much a surprise to me as it was anybody
else :|
does this mean no tickle fight?
Just a comment from a bystander who is in no way in this
community (though I watch it with content, it's like a
regular days of our lives-episode).
I have to say that this being my future profession (what
you're al l doing) I'm a bit afraid. I thought the
"programmers sphere" was a relaxed
environment, free from petty envy and battles over
titles, status and advantages. I guess I was wrong, it's
a regular school playground (or exec-level playground.)
Meh... and I have to say I'm glad for Rorys sake. He had
a good time and I haven't seen anyone actually at the
event complaining yet.
Partially un partial: actually, at least one MVP has
written a comment on this post that she was not really
OK with it. And I bet there are some more who just don't
want to get in the middle of this.
What a loser. Get over yourself.
First of all let me say I'm not an MVP or RD or whatever
else. I do have MCSD but I got it for the sole purpose
of getting a job.
This goes out to Ron and his supporters. It's amusing to
read this thread, you sound like a bunch of kids
fighting for some attention. What differentiate you from
kids is that you don't speak your mind openly but
instead try to disguise your true feelings behind
senseless mumbo-jumbo and two faced arguments. Behind
all that lies a true nature of your motivation – envy
and fame. You try so hard to get noticed and when a guy
next to you gets more attention than you all hell breaks
loose. Why not just admit what you are after?
You said you respect Rori and to show your respect you
argue that he is not good enough to be invited (although
you cover up that fact by generalizing about MS
policies)? And Rori, somehow you feel the need to defend
yourself. Why? Ignore the haters and be proud, you like
fame and you got a lucky break that others didn’t.
And for those who suggested creating new MVP title for
evangelism and such – I also want to say: “What the
f**k?” How does it fit into a concept of Most Valuable
Professional? How are you going to provide a value to
me? Are you going to help me when I don’t know how to
solve a problem? No, you are going to attend PDC,
TechEd, blogging dinner (or another social whoring
event) and then blog about it. Thanks a lot in advance
I’m looking forward to your invaluable help.
To Partially Unpartial: relax; most of us are not like
that. Unfortunately these people are usually louder then
the rest, after a while you will either join them or
ignore them.
I am surprised and disturbed by the
"noise" generated by the so-called
MVPs.
MVP = Microsoft Valuable Professionals, not best .NET
Coder, not best Community leader.
As with all MVP awards, they are all recognized based on
intangibles. They help and contribute to the community.
And they should all be so gracious to let the so called
"Non-MVP" share in the enrichment
everyone should so deserved.
Now, if you are gonna ask, why not everyone there, then
? This is a question only MS can answer as they are the
host. Remember, we are all guests in their event and we
all shld behave like one. As hosts, they can invite
anyone they want and see fit and they see fit Rory
should attend. If I ran that event, I would invite him
too.
I am particularly disturbed by this as this strikes a
parallel experience I had in my
"younger" days where employers would
not even look at me because I dont have a
"Computer-Science" Degree. I cant even
begin to tell you that so many of my
"Computer-Science" peer grads are now
economists, businessmen. So if they can do it, why cant
a "Economics" grad like me cross over
successfully ? Over these years of hard work, I have
successfully moved over and am doing good at what I am
doing in the IT world. I am sure you all know there are
so many top-notch-blue-chip trainers, authors,
consultants who are not
"Computer-Science" grads but they can
beat any average "Computer-Science"
grad hands-down with passion and determination.
Remember, stop being so superficial, its all just an
appointment. There is no need to put so much weight on
it. Yeah, granted, its nice to have. Its MS way of
recognizing you BUT we shouldnt use that as deadweight
to impose on other people who may not have the
misfortune. None of us have the right to.
This is the ticky-tacky squabble SUN Developers have
with MS Developers. The vendors love them...creates the
flame that fans the fire. The last thing we need is to
have even internal groups fighting within the MS
Developer camps, be it MSCD, MCSE, MCDBA, MVP, RD, etc
etc
Just my 2c worth. Respect is what we must give everyone
on this earth as their own individual with their
strengths and weaknesses. No one has the right to judge
anyone. Well, we try not to, anyways ;)
"And then people complain about the youth of
today... *sigh*"
yup, I'm sure many of us (myself included) are the youth
of yesterday :)
Chance -
"I can’t begin to express how disgusted I am
that anyone would even be the slightest bit upset that
this ‘special gathering’ was somehow tainted by his
presence..."
Well, you didn't see me dancing during karaoke :)
All the same, thanks for the support. Today's been a
crappy day, and hearing a few words in support is very
nice.
My third post to this. Get me to talk and you can’t get
me to shut the hell up :)
I want to retract a comment from my first post. I got
home today and the first thing I did was start catching
up on some blogs. By the time I got through reading
everything that was posted I was absolutely seething
with anger. The jackass comment I made was uncalled for
and out of line. I apologize for that. However, I stand
by my opinions about your overall attitude towards the
event (we can’t leave everything smelling all rosy.
Where’s the fun in that? :) ).
This will all blow over in short order I’m sure. We can
all put our heads back down and start banging out code
again until the next controversy rears its head :)
I dont know why anyone would want to be an MVP... Look
at all the bozo's they have as ASP.Net MVP's... Only
about 20% deserve it, and 80% just know someone... the
whole program reeks of BS and it already has been
cheapened to the point of "who the hell
cares"... I mean, it is sooo well known that
the program is screwed that if I was awarded MVP I
wouldn't even tell anyone. The whole thing is a damn
joke, and people just want the free MSDN. Thats about
it...
Moek
mmmmmmmmm, free MSDN. It just rolls off the tongue
doesn't it. freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee as in beer.
Rory
"Well, you didn't see me dancing during karaoke
:) "
I did check out the pictures though. Certainly looks
like something I would do after I got a few drinks in me
(and the lunacy would worsen as the alcohol continued to
flow). If you’re ever in the Columbus/Dayton/Cincinnati
OH area I’ll have to buy you a drink or 6. I’m sure with
our combined shenanigans we could get kicked out of a
few bars. Great fun.
Egads, that last paragraph sounds a little bit
stalkers-ish doesn’t it? (you’re my friend Rory, come
drink with me. You know you want to. Drink with me I
said!! I know where you live Rory!! ;) ). Don’t worry,
you’re not going to see me peering out from behind a
building every time you walk to your car or come home
and find me riffling through your underwear drawer :)
Chance and Rory sitting in a tree.
P-r-o-g-rami-n-g
It's good to speak ones mind, but you have to consider
the consequences. Roy aren't you worried that if you now
get MVP status, people are going to roll their eyes and
(rightly or wrongly) think it was your whingeing that
got you in? For what it's worth, you probably deserve
it, but it'll be somewhat diluted by this little
outburst.
I doubt that very many MVP (who are all extremely
competent professionals) really cares if MS invites
people who don't have technically that coveted title. I
mean what kind of insecure dweeb gets mad because MS
recognizes that somebody else is also worth inviting to
an event. Is any MVP's self-image so weak that they feel
threatened by the MVP becoming slight (very slightly)
less prestigious? If the number of non-MVPs were large
(and thus tended to destroy any sense of community) then
it would be a problem, but a small number of
"special guests" is a problem? I just
don't see it.
C. J.
When it comes to MS technology, the most valuable player
we have was here all last week.
He was not off at a conference, but our RD was...
Rory does more for MS than a negative bastard like you
ever could Roy. Nobody likes a holier-than-thou, jealous
critic. Shut up. I can't even begin to express how much
you suck and should just be quiet and keep your stupid
opinion to yourself. Fortunately this is a free country
and you're allowed to express your opinion. So are
Celine Dion fans. Doesn't mean they are not freaking
retarded.
Morals of this story:
<1> You suck
<2> SHUT UP.
<3> DEAR GOD YOU SUCK.
As a recovering Linux bigot now discovering the wonders
of .NET, I was almost getting used to the camaraderie
and professionalism of the Microsoft developer
community. Those vitriolic, anti-Microsoft open-source
programmers were starting to seem like losers. I badly
needed a dose of reality.
So, Roy, I want to thank you for reminding me that .NET
people can be petty and childish too, just like
open-source people. Your jealous whining was just the
thing to remind me that, no matter where you go, every
barrel has its share of bad apples.
This is the most out of hand thing I've ever seen. There
were tons of Non MVP's at the summit, many of whom kept
the beer flowing. But the part I don't get is this: I'm
an MVP. I feel like I've done a good amount of work to
get there. If I hosted my own party, Rory wouldn't be
there b/c I don't know him at the moment and I have less
money than Bill G does so I'd be hard pressed to flip
the bill for him. However, I didn't host anything. I was
an invitee. MS could have told me to take a hike even
though I'm an MVP. There's nothing written that said MS
is legally obliged to allow me to attend. As such, they
can invite whoever they want. How did that Hurt me? How
has that diminished the MVP program? I just don't see
it.
Well, I went as well, and I'm certainly not an MVP or
press. I didn't hear anyone kicking up a stink about me.